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DOWN BELOW (SPOILERS) Lady Morella's Prophecy
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TOPIC: DOWN BELOW (SPOILERS) Lady Morella's Prophecy

DOWN BELOW (SPOILERS) Lady Morella's Prophecy 10 months ago #10759

If you're a first time B5 viewer, leave this thread immediately. No really, you do not want to see the MASSIVE SPOILERS that this thread will contain.





Gone?

Okay.

In the latest episode of The Babble On Project, Matt and I discuss our theories about Lady Morella's prophecy, and the meanings generally accepted in fandom. We'd love to have a big conversation about them with our listeners (and any other B5 fans that happen upon this thread. Hello!)


As a kick off, here is the exact text of the prophecy:

"You still have three opportunities to avoid the fire at the end of your journey.

You have already wasted two others.

You must save the eye that does not see;

you must not kill the one who is already dead;

and at the last, you must surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing that it will destroy you.

Now if you have failed all the others, that is your final chance at redemption."


So what do we think? What were the two wasted chances? What does "the fire" represent? What are the three remaining chances?
Last Edit: 10 months ago by Gillian Coyle.

Re: DOWN BELOW (SPOILERS) Lady Morella's Prophecy 10 months ago #10760

  • Avelera
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I would point out, as I think JMS did too, that we hear the prophecy spoken but do not see it written. Therefore the "eye" that does not see could very well be the "I" that does not see. As for the first two, one would assume that it had something to do with the either his first deal with Morden, or the one he made during "Coming of Shadows".

(Also, let me know if I should hide any of this below a spoiler cut, but I think since this is a spoiler thread I should be able to get away with it.)

It's a very tricksy prophecy. When I first heard it I thought she was saying that the first two options were already past, and therefore he had already failed with the "eye/I" and the killing. I guess we'll never know what they really were, but assuming then that all 3 avoidance points are in the future:

1) "The eye that does not see." In my opinion it can either be the "I" that does not see, just to cryptic, or we can assume a literal eye. If it had been a past event I would have assumed he needed to save the Imperial eye that Lord Kiro was after in "Signs and Portents" without Morden's help. Since its a future event, I think we have to assume it's G'Kar's eye (which "sees better" now that he has lost it). For some reason, if he had stuck around long enough to tell Cartagia to leave G'Kar alone, events might have somehow snowballed enough to save him from what comes later. (On a humorous note, maybe its the eye that G'Kar put in Sheridan and Delenn's wedding suite, and by helping him get it Londo does save himself!)

2) "You must not kill the one who is already dead." I think in this case it is referring to Morden. As epic as it was to see Morden get what was coming to him, and to see Vir's request to fulfilled, the event further doomed Londo. I would assume this is because as a result of Morden execution, the Drakh chose Centauri Prime as their base. Keep in mind, that had the Shadows been allowed to remain on Centauri Prime, they would have left with the Vorlons thus sparing the planet. Therefore, blowing up the island was unnecessary. Had it not been done, the Drakh would have remembered the Centauri as allies and not needed to punish them.
It's also possible that the very act of fulfilling Vir's wish also had an impact. I have a personal theory that Morden didn't "choose" Londo, rather Morden fulfills every request he is given, including the one he made with G'Kar (you'll note that G'Kar never sees Morden again, even in passing, and there are points where the Shadows could kill G'Kar but don't. I believe this is because they have a contract with him.) Perhaps by fulfilling the Shadow's contract with Vir to see Morden beheaded, Londo further doomed himself?

3) "You must sacrifice yourself." This could be one of two things - 1) accepting the Keeper or 2) allowing G'Kar to kill him. If it is the former, then accepting the Keeper was the only way to save himself and his planet from the "fire" of the fusion bombs. I can't imagine much that is worse than accepting the Keeper, so perhaps that act of selflessness is what saves him. If it's the latter, then allowing G'Kar to kill him is all that saves his planet and his soul from the "fires" of the bombs and of metaphorical damnation. If either is the case then he only saved himself on the final chance.

However, what would be interesting, and which we will never know since it would effectively be an alternate universe, is if his greatest fear was putting Centauri Prime in danger? What if he should have turned the Drakh down and refused the Keeper? Or what if his greatest fear was his death dream NOT coming true? Then it could be said that he failed on all counts.

As for the fires, I'm assuming that it is the fire of the destruction of Centauri Prime. On that count it is hard to say whether he was successful or not, since we see Centauri Prime burning on two occasions (Fall of Centauri Prime and War Without End). I think in the end it was meant to be mysterious, though I do wish we had gotten confirmation one way or the other!
The following user(s) said Thank You: Gillian Coyle

Re: DOWN BELOW (SPOILERS) Lady Morella's Prophecy 9 months, 3 weeks ago #10788

  • Zola
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"You still have three opportunities to avoid the fire at the end of your journey."

Did he avoid the "fire"? It could be argued that he missed all three opportunities as his homeworld did end in fire and in ruins! She said he would be Emperor in either case.

As for the prophecies, I agree with you guys.

1. "You must save the eye that cannot see" is G'Kar's eye

2. "you must not kill the one who is already dead" is Morden

3. "you must surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing that it will destroy you." has to be the keeper as Londo always liked to be in control and to have to surrender that control to someone else is something he must have feared.

Did he save his planet and himself on the last one? Probably, and that's why we love the show so much. Even after all these years we still don't know the full truth about everything.

Steve Evans

Re: DOWN BELOW (SPOILERS) Lady Morella's Prophecy 9 months, 3 weeks ago #10791

  • Avelera
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Hey Gillian, I just wanted to add one theory as to why people were so convinced that John was the "one who is already dead":
This prophecy came out in Season 3 of Babylon 5, and fans might have connected War Without End and Z'Ha'Dum to figure that Sheridan was the one who fit that prophecy. Then there would have been the hiatus between Seasons 3 and 4 in which there would have been a lot of fan speculation. Morden being killed by Londo wouldn't have hit the fan consciousness until mid-way through Season 4, and by that time some of the furor to figure out the prophecy might have died down. As in the real world, once an idea is entrenched (ie, that Sheridan is the one who is already dead) it's hard to dislodge it even in the case of superior evidence. By the time chronologically that Morden was dead, you would have had a large contingent that had managed to convince themselves the prophecy applied to Sheridan, and thus satisfied may have stopped speculating on that aspect of the prophecy.

tl;dr Fans thinking that Sheridan is the "one who is already dead" is probably just a product of having had more time to think about it, as Morden didn't die until half way through the following season.

Re: DOWN BELOW (SPOILERS) Lady Morella's Prophecy 9 months, 2 weeks ago #10803

For what it's worth, a question could be asked, does Londo even KNOW Morden was dead before? Either as a "casualty" of the Icarus disaster, or quite possibly blown up real good at Za'Ha'Dum (even though he appears Extra Crispy style to him early in Season 4).

The viewer obviously knows all the human vessels used by the Shadows from the Icarus(Morden, Anna) are clearly deceased, but that doesn't mean that all of the characters on the show are aware of it. Sure Londo knows of the connection between The Shadows and Morden at the point of the Prophecy, but I don't think he ever knows that Morden actually is considered to have died previous to their meeting.

Come to think of it, was it yet known to Londo that Sheridan had died at Za'Ha'Dum? I'm trying to remember, besides Delenn whom actually knew that Sheridan had died at that point. In Season 5's "The Very Long Night Of Londo Molari" Londo knowing Sheridan was dead at some point comes up during Londo's dream conversation with Sheridan, but is there anything before hand?

Speaking of that Season 5 episode, you might want to consider that whole episode as evidence that Londo really does consider the events of his death his greatest fear? Part of what brings him out of his coma is finally agreeing to apologizing to G'Kar and accepting his ascendance to being Emperor. So maybe a piece of him, despite the strides that had been made before hand, that something was holding him back and maybe it was the whole notion that he would die by G'Kar's hands as Emperor.

Though another Season 5 point towards the Keeper being his greatest fear comes from this quote from a late Season 5 episode "You know, I once had no power and yet all the choices in the world, now all the power and none of the choices."

Re: DOWN BELOW (SPOILERS) Lady Morella's Prophecy 8 months, 3 weeks ago #10862

  • Ivanina
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JMS has given answers on all three of Londo's future chances.

1) You must save the eye that does not see.

Yeah...would've been nice if Londo had at least tried to do something about the eye that did not see Cartagia's splendor....


Lurker's Guide

2) You must not kill the one who is already dead.

Refa was never already dead, so it can't be him. Dead is dead,
and the only one who fits that description would be Sheridan.


JMS News

3)You must surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing that it will destroy you.

The goal was to *redeem* himself. Sparing Sheridan was part of
that. Then he had to surrender himself to his greatest fear: his death
at G'Kar's hands.


JMS News

We get fuller details on two of the three chances in the "Legions of Fire" trilogy by Peter David. They're lovely books. Londo's wives appear in them and we get to see Vir establishing himself as a leader of his people.
Last Edit: 8 months, 3 weeks ago by GPOAdminDroid. Reason: Restoring original post for user

Re: DOWN BELOW (SPOILERS) Lady Morella's Prophecy 8 months, 2 weeks ago #10909

  • Charly
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Just thought, on "must not kill the one who is already dead".

Was Sheirdan actually dead at the point he jumped forward? I am not sure where in the timeline it was set, or if that was set after the events of Sleeping in the Light. This may fit better as he may actually have been dead at this point.

This may explain why Delen seemed so confused when she saw Sheridan, as he had disappeared on his ship a while before.

Re: DOWN BELOW (SPOILERS) Lady Morella's Prophecy 8 months, 1 week ago #10922

  • Fnar
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Well, he'd already died in Z'Ha'Dum at that point in Londo's timeline, but if you mean beyond-the-rim dead, I'm pretty sure Sheridan was still around. At least, assuming that timeline is the same one Sheridan's Z'Ha'Dum field trip led to. In the main(?) timeline, Sheridan survived Londo, as evidenced by Vir toasting Londo's memory at John's going away party in Sleeping in Light.

Re: DOWN BELOW (SPOILERS) Lady Morella's Prophecy 7 months, 1 week ago #10971

  • Avelera
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Repost, just ignore.
Last Edit: 7 months, 1 week ago by Avelera.

Re: DOWN BELOW (SPOILERS) Lady Morella's Prophecy 7 months, 1 week ago #10972

  • Avelera
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@ Steve Rogers
Well he did hear that a nuclear warhead had gone off at Z'Ha'Dum, and Morden was clearly caught in the crossfire judging by his state when he first appears on Centauri Prime, extra crispy. I think Morden even admits that he was as good as dead and was brought back.
All I'm saying is I think he had more reason to believe Morden was the one who was already dead than Sheridan. However, word of god (JMS) below would seem to indicate that in his mind it was Sheridan. I suppose in that light it could just be that Sheridan is (yet again) the World's Only Hope, in this case to save Centauri Prime from the Drakh, and therefore killing him would remove the only person capable of saving Centauri Prime. And to be honest that makes me kind of angry, because honestly does Sheridan have to be the hero every time? Delenn could have pulled it off, or Vir. I prefer my interpretation that had Morden not been killed then the bombs wouldn't have been planted in the first place, thus averting the fire.
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